BMW - The End of an Era

"Bill Caswell" (billcaswell) 05/05/2015 at 17:15 • Filed to: None

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Three years ago I wrote the article titled !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! saying that the BMW M cars had become the Ultimate Poser Machine. But I didn’t realize how right I was until last Saturday when I went to a Chicago Region SCCA Autocross. There were two BMWs in a field of nearly 100 and both were from the 1990’s. It was sad.

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Autocross parking lots used to be filled with modern BMWs because you can’t really hurt a car racing around cones. But the new BMW product has become so bloated and unfun(yes its a word) to drive that no one bothers to compete in them anymore. Guess what the largest class is at my local BMW car club event? Its the one for non-BMWs. That is sad.

I got a lot of grief three years ago for publishing that Death of the M Brand Article. But lately Im being told more and more that I was right and that its getting worse. Even Car & Driver jumped on the band wagon yesterday with an article saying “BMW Is Fighting For Its Soul” where they confirmed my thoughts... “Many performance models prove to be a real disappointment on the track—or, conversely, good on the track but intolerable on the road.” Again, sad.

Its nice to hear that I was right, but really sad that BMW continues to move in this direction. I think it might be the end of an era. The end of BMW as a drivers machine. If you want to read more or see more links to articles confirming my thoughts, !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

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E. Julius > Bill Caswell 05/05/2015 at 17:21

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Please let Cadillac take BMW’s place.

itschrome > E. Julius 05/05/2015 at 17:23

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in failure or as the ultimate driving machines?

nermal > E. Julius 05/05/2015 at 17:24

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Nah, all they’re going to do is rename everything into Q or CT or whatever, while stuck under the same GM crap that got them there.

Jaguar is the one to watch for.

LongbowMkII > Bill Caswell 05/05/2015 at 17:25

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It’s harder to strike a good balance(and be the best at all) between NVH, ride, grip and handling feel. In the 90’s there were only a few challengers to the M cars, so it was easier to stand head and shoulders above the rest. Audi S cars were...uncompetitive, AMG was more of a tuner than a Mercedes factory effort. America was a wasteland (as far as sports sedans were concerned) and Japan kept their best efforts at home. Not to say that the weren’t great in the 90’s, but there wasn’t a great competitor either.

EL_ULY > Bill Caswell 05/05/2015 at 17:28

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Oh well, go Cadillac and Lincoln! Here is your chance!

E. Julius > nermal 05/05/2015 at 17:29

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Maybe I could give my opinion on Jaguar if they didn’t have their heads so far up their own asses and actually let me near one of them at an auto show. Sorry I’m not “discerning” enough Mr. Tata!

In all seriousness though, I haven’t had any chance to check out a new jag because a) I know no one that has one and b) I’m not going to waste my time at an auto show with some company that thinks it has to rope off all of its cars and make people wait in line to get close to them. Mercedes didn’t give a fuck that I walked right up to the new S–class and sat in it, BMW didn’t care if I popped the hood on an M3.

duurtlang > Bill Caswell 05/05/2015 at 17:29

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BMW has moved from well built sport sedans with a bit of luxury to luxury vehicles with a sporty edge. It’s a move that’s making them a lot of money apparently.

I, like you, am not a fan of this shift. Given that it does make economical sense I can’t really blame BMW. After the soccermom X-series vehicles the new FWD 2-series MPVs are selling like hot cakes here. People apparently like them enough to buy them. I personally will stick to the E30 Touring I’m fixing up.

BrtStlnd > Bill Caswell 05/05/2015 at 17:32

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Bill, we all know you’re still just salty that they didn’t fund your racing efforts.

The M cars that BMW makes today are incredible machines by any measure, it’s just that BMW has expanded their lineup in a (successful) attempt to make more money. Sorry if that makes you clutch your pearls.

Take your sour grapes elsewhere.

Textured Soy Protein > Bill Caswell 05/05/2015 at 17:33

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Personally I’ve never put much stock in the DO YOU EVEN AUTOCROSS, BRO attitude about not being a real car enthusiast, or a car not being real performance car, if you don’t see them at lots of competitive events.

Hell, I’ve had any number of performance cars over the years that I’ve modified to varying degrees, and all I’ve done with them is fart around to work and back and go bomb around the country with the windows down. I don’t need to burn up a bunch of tires and brake pads dodging cones in a parking lot to justify my having bought the car or my enjoyment of it.

Seems to me this is less an indication that BMWs are no longer drivers cars and more an indication that there are other cheaper cars that people can buy brand new and be successful at autocross events.

How many other brand new $50k+ cars were at this autocross?

jjhats > Bill Caswell 05/05/2015 at 17:35

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Do I really need to point out the obvious? Bmw are expensive and the kinds of people who run autox aren't rich so the two circles don't intersect until you get old cheap bmw's. Look at the cars that frequent. My circuit number 1 right now is the scion frs and subaru brz. Second is miata after that it's a blend of mr2 subarus fords corvettes and other cheap tunable cars. Modern M cars are so expensive I feel like this should have been obvious

jkm7680 > Bill Caswell 05/05/2015 at 17:35

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Mercedes has become dreadfully boring.

BMW has had an identity crisis.

Audi is leaving manual transmissions in the past.

I don’t even know about Lexus. Everything they make is hideous and makes me want to surgically remove my eyes with a drill.

Acura still sucks.

Infiniti let a blind person design cars.

And nobody can tell me otherwise, because those are my opinions.

Justin Hughes > Bill Caswell 05/05/2015 at 17:36

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From time to time I ponder a BMW for my next daily driver. And then I ask myself - why? It’s almost impossible to find one that isn’t an automatic. For a lot less money, I can pick up a WRX if I want an AWD driver’s car, or a GTI if I want a good German driver’s car, or even as Mustang GT if I want a RWD driver’s car that can give an M4 a run for its money (that’s something I never imagined I’d ever say).

It’s sad. I’ve been a BMW fan like you for years. But today’s offerings just don’t do it for me, especially for the premium price tag.

E. Julius > itschrome 05/05/2015 at 17:36

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The latter.

BrtStlnd > Textured Soy Protein 05/05/2015 at 17:38

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I think the car headcount at these events is a testament to the greatness of the Miata and not an indictment on BMW. No one is going to autocross a new M5, it just isn’t happening.

Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast > BrtStlnd 05/05/2015 at 17:42

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Yes, their grab to make more money by expanding their lineup is a move in line with the new era.

The old “ultimate driving machine” era is the one he is saying is dead. They killed it to focus on making more money.

You’re both correct. And his complaint is valid.

Biggus Dickus (RevsBro) > Bill Caswell 05/05/2015 at 17:42

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Have you driven an E9X M3? That could easily win the award for “best all-rounder” of the last 10 years.

Or go to a track day, I guarantee you will see plenty of newer BMWs.

BrtStlnd > Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast 05/05/2015 at 17:44

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No, it isn’t. The new M cars are still brilliant, just like the old ones.

Mr. Ontop, No Strokes, No Smokes...Goes Fast. > Bill Caswell 05/05/2015 at 17:48

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I guess you could count Mini as a BMW, but those things are growing fat as well.

Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast > BrtStlnd 05/05/2015 at 17:54

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True, but they are brilliant for the new era, not the old one. This new era is where we need hundreds of horsepower, GPS, heated AND cooled seats, backup cameras and whatever else the modern BMW enthusiast demands in his sporty-luxury-efficient-4wd-crossover-hybrid-with-a-sunroof jack of all trades.

“M” now has ZERO connection to any current racecar, where long in the past, “M” ONLY did race cars. The focus has shifted over the decades. This is no way saying the new cars are “bad” per say, they are just not as special as they used to be because they now inherently have to appeal to as wide a spectrum of people as possible.

Bill Caswell > EL_ULY 05/05/2015 at 17:57

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That is excellent! Nice work EL_ULY

armandthegreat > Bill Caswell 05/05/2015 at 17:57

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Bmw still has my respect as long as they keep offering a manual in the M6. Probably the biggest sedan you can get with a stick. Which is pimpin’. Sure BMW has been fucking around in recent years, but you know what? With any luck, Audi and others have taken enough of their pie to make them change their ways.

Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast > jkm7680 05/05/2015 at 18:00

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You should take a look at Cadillac...

They have a championship winning factory race team, ya know. ;p

jkm7680 > Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast 05/05/2015 at 18:02

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Whoops, forgot them.

Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast > Mr. Ontop, No Strokes, No Smokes...Goes Fast. 05/05/2015 at 18:02

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I was SHOCKED when I saw a new Mini parked next to a last gen Fusion.

It’s huge!!

Textured Soy Protein > BrtStlnd 05/05/2015 at 18:03

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Miatas and your other autocross usual suspects like Toyobarus, WRXs, Ford STs, GTIs, Minis, etc.

I’ve had a Miata and now have a 135is. I’ve never autocrossed either. I’m obviously a terrible excuse for a car guy.

Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast > jkm7680 05/05/2015 at 18:04

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No problem. It seems most people are these days...

ZING!! haha

nermal > E. Julius 05/05/2015 at 18:05

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As far as auto shows go, it depends. At the one in my area, the local Jag / LR dealer was the one that brought the cars, and they had them open to sit in.

The Porsches were all locked though.

nermal > BrtStlnd 05/05/2015 at 18:07

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This reeks of Jeep-guy.

All new stuff is crap! They should never have changed from the old stuff!

(Until something newer comes out. Then the old-new stuff will be good, and the new-new stuff will be crap!)

E. Julius > nermal 05/05/2015 at 18:08

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The last one I went to was the Paris auto show, which I believe consisted entirely of manufacturer–led efforts. I think they had a couple Boxsters open there, but all the more expensive Porsche were locked as well. I did get to sit in a sweet R8 though. That was fun. I’d still love to check out the new jags, but the opportunity has not presented itself.

Amoore100 > Bill Caswell 05/05/2015 at 18:26

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Sucks for them. Go Volvo!

PS9 > EL_ULY 05/05/2015 at 18:34

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Driver in the third gif has balls of steel

Bill Caswell > BrtStlnd 05/05/2015 at 18:37

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If I wanted BMW sponsorship I would have said yes to them shooting a short film about my story for the 40th anniversary of the 3 series. Instead I told them to suck it. Twice actually.

Maybe you should check out everyone else’s comments or the article from Car and Driver yesterday saying the new BMWs have lost their soul and are horrible on track. Because you seem to be one of the few that thinks BMW hasn’t lost its way.

You might be really young though and not fully understand what the company used to stand for and why their cars were so good relative to the competition - now i would take their competitors cars everytime over a BMW. I do like the M6 Grand Coupe but its like $180,000 or so. I think I like every car in the price range.

And to be clear, I never said they weren’t incredible machines. They are just not enthusiast or driving machines anymore. There is a huge difference.

SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) > EL_ULY 05/05/2015 at 18:37

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I can understand the Cadillac argument, but Lincoln? Really? Dude, what universe are you currently in?

Bill Caswell > BrtStlnd 05/05/2015 at 18:41

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What does still brilliant mean? It doesn’t mean performance to me. It doesnt mean competitive to me. It doesnt mean its an enthusiasts car or even a drivers car. It sound like something a girl would say to her date at a really posh restaurant as the valet pulls it up. You’re car is simply brilliant...

I never once thought I would see the day where a Cadillac or Ford Mustang smokes BMW’s M product around a racetrack...

Bill Caswell > Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast 05/05/2015 at 18:44

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Exactly. BMWs are awesome cars for something like a road trip. To like Vegas for a pool party. cooled seats, great stereo, and mad power so you’re not late to hear your favorite euro dj play techno while you drink with vodka soda girls. In the past, the M cars used to be drivers cars that were awesome on the racetrack too. Now I would rather have a Ford Mustang than an M car.

EL_ULY > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 05/05/2015 at 18:51

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they have the money, platforms, and technology to make a full RWD fleet.

Bill Caswell > Textured Soy Protein 05/05/2015 at 18:53

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I never said you can’t be an car enthusiast unless you autocross. What Im saying is that people no longer use BMWs to compete with, or autocross with, or take to racetracks. They simply aren’t good at that anymore. In the past, these same events used to be loaded with BMWs. There were typically more BMWs than any other brand. Now they are like 2% of the field. And their relative price hasn’t changed over the years... 1995 M3 was roughly $40,000 which was a lot of cash 20 years ago. And the autocrosses and track days were full of them. Not anymore...

As for the other cars? Brand new corvettes, Z06 corvettes, a 911 GT3, followed by a ton of new Ford ST product and BRZ and FRS’s. BMW is simply not the choice for the enthusiast driver anymore. At any price.

Bill Caswell > BrtStlnd 05/05/2015 at 18:57

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15-20 years ago the autocrosses were full of BMWs. not they are not...

Sure a few guys would autocross their M5 back in the day, but mostly it was 3 series product, and Z3/4 M stuff. So why are people competing with the new M3 M4 M235i cars?

Or what about this one? Why is the largest class at the chicago region of the BMW car club autocrosses for non BMWs?

Something has changed. We might be seeing the end of an era.

SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) > EL_ULY 05/05/2015 at 19:00

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Jaguar has the money, platform, technology, and production ready prototype to make the CX75.

Doesn’t mean they’re going to do it.

Even if Lincoln did make a full RWD fleet, they aren’t even attempting to compete in any segment with the word ‘performance’ in it, let alone the “ultimate driving machine” title. What reason do they have to start now?

Bill Caswell > LongbowMkII 05/05/2015 at 19:00

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This is true. I would rather have a Ford Mustang, or Ford ST car or FRS/BRZ or Sti or cayman over anything BMW makes if I wanted to do enthusiast activities.

BrtStlnd > Bill Caswell 05/05/2015 at 19:03

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Because someone with enough money to consider autocrossing a new $40-80k car probably also has enough to buy an Atom, Xbow or modified Miata as a track car? Because they don’t want to trash their new car?

The truth is that the Miata has replaced nearly EVERY other car as the auto crosser of choice.

Bill Caswell > Biggus Dickus (RevsBro) 05/05/2015 at 19:07

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I have. My friends own them. We were at Gingerman and they parked their E9x’s and got in the passenger seat of the Mustang I was driving because it was more fun to ride shotgun in the Mustang. Seriously.

I actually kind of like the E9x but more as you put it. and all around good car. especially for road trips. And it would have been an awesome base model 3 series. Now a fully gutted E9x is a pretty cool car but the rear suspension is more like an old 5 series car so not the ideal platform for a track dedicated car.

BrtStlnd > Bill Caswell 05/05/2015 at 19:09

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Bill what you just wrote makes no sense.

Let me ask a question you might answer. What do you think the current M3 should be that it isn’t?

Bear in mind that the current state of the automobile is not anything close to what it was during the 80s.

Bill Caswell > nermal 05/05/2015 at 19:09

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Except you can measure the enthusiasts reaction by the lack of BMW product at autocrosses and track days. Its not about BMW within the BMW lineup. Its that enthusiasts have switched to other brands. If they dont come back it will be the end of an era for BMW.

Bill Caswell > BrtStlnd 05/05/2015 at 19:11

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In the past these same people bought new M product to take to the track. Now they dont. Your statement BrtstInd is exactly the one Im making. BMW is no longer the car of choice for enthusiasts.

MLGCarGuy > jkm7680 05/05/2015 at 19:12

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Lexus’s good handling cars all have below 350hp. Which is sad. The RC F and GS F are all pigs.

BrtStlnd > Bill Caswell 05/05/2015 at 19:13

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Like I said in another reply, this is more of a feather in the Miata’s cap than an indictment of M cars.

Bill Caswell > jkm7680 05/05/2015 at 19:14

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The new Mercedes SLS and GT3 stuff looks pretty cool. They even won the 24hrs of the Nurburgring with it. I think the last time BMW won the N24 was with the E46 M3?

Bill Caswell > Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast 05/05/2015 at 19:14

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Like pregnant huge. I was waiting for a first gen mini to pop out!

MLGCarGuy > Bill Caswell 05/05/2015 at 19:20

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Well there are three types of modern BMWs. There are the genuine fun ones (1 and 2 Series), the heavy and tech-laden (every other BMW). Then there’s the ones designed by the insane (the good type). Like these.

Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast > BrtStlnd 05/05/2015 at 19:26

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The M3 should be lighter, louder, simpler...

And on a global stage BMW needs to RACE THE DAMN THING!!!

Bill Caswell > BrtStlnd 05/05/2015 at 19:27

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My comment makes more sense than simply calling something “Brilliant” But I realize you're having a hard time understanding. Im sorry.

The M3 should be more like a GT3. Porsche gets it. They continue to make cars that appeal to luxury buyers but reserve the GT brand(GT3, GT3, GT4) for the enthusiasts. Does that make more sense?

Bill Caswell > Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast 05/05/2015 at 19:32

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I left out racing because the shift in cars is far more than that, but BMW doesnt race ANYTHING that even resembles what they sell in the dealership. DTM is a spec chassis that everyone uses and the Z4 is so far removed the production car that its strange they would choose that for their race car. I would love to see an M3 or M4 with a cage and basic suspension mods enter an endurance race. Like the 24hrs of thunderhill even. But the factory won't even run one in One Lap of America. They entered an X6 because the only place a BMW is competitive is in a SUV class.

Bill Caswell > MLGCarGuy 05/05/2015 at 19:34

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Have you seen the i8 in person yet? Its plastic and looks plastic. They look great in photos, less impressive in person I think. And again. nice luxury car but hardly an enthusiasts car.

SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) > Justin Hughes 05/05/2015 at 19:35

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I just let out an audible groan.

MLGCarGuy > Bill Caswell 05/05/2015 at 19:43

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I sat in one. Aside from the high grade leather and how low the car was it felt like I was in a regular 3 or 5 Series because the cabin was relatively the same, no special design or anything. And yeah some parts do look really cheap.

Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast > Bill Caswell 05/05/2015 at 19:48

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Oh I agree it’s bigger than just the race cars. And don’t get me started on the Z4 racecar...

To me, a closely linked road and race car is an ideal, albeit rare combo for improving the breed. Not many brands manage that close link, but it is definitely possible if it’s really important to them. (Corvette, 911, etc.)

But I guess to me, even if the road cars don’t have much to do with what you can get in the showroom, it’s good to know that someone, somewhere in the company is supporting motorsport in the form of a racecar. And that the brand is at least slightly aligned with a performance focus.

My example would be Peugeot during the LeMans years with Audi. Not a ton of wins or championships, and no $1mil Peugeot super car mirroring the racecar, but damn if they still had cred in my book because they were out there on the starting line ready to get down and dirty come race day.

The M brand is only there to buy the banners on the hospitality lounges filled with espresso and massages. :/

TulsaMtnBiker (OkieRising) > Bill Caswell 05/05/2015 at 19:49

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Seems to me plenty of BMW owners are at the track up here in Colorado. Myself included.

I love my M4. It’s been all around Europe, the Midwest, and the Rockies. And gasp, it has even seen snow. Yes it’s a 6MT.

Michael Cohen > E. Julius 05/05/2015 at 19:56

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No ropes at Jag at Chicago show. Sorry to hear you had such a bad experience.

It's a "Porch-uh" > PS9 05/05/2015 at 20:02

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The blocks are CG.

bob and john > EL_ULY 05/05/2015 at 20:06

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If lincoln ends up being the 90s BMW in any amount of time, i will personally fly my ass down to texas and buy you a 24 pack

BrtStlnd > Bill Caswell 05/05/2015 at 20:31

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The GT3 costs almost 200 grand. The M3 is a fraction of that as is the M5.

Bill Caswell > BrtStlnd 05/05/2015 at 20:38

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The GT3 is $130,000. A base 911 is 85,000. The markup is 53%

An M3 is $62,000. A base 3 series is $32,000. The markup is 52%

BrtStlnd > Bill Caswell 05/05/2015 at 20:57

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You’re comparing two things that are not similar. Like heavyweights vs welterweights.

Thoughts on the i8? It's gotten very high praise from just about everywhere.

JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 > Bill Caswell 05/05/2015 at 21:00

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Replace drool-worthy NA engines with breathed-on turbocharged ones originating from the non-M models, hydraulic steering with EPS, and infallible chassis with softer ones with handling bolstered by stiffer dampening and you have what is present day BMW Motorsport GmbH. The used market has plenty of neat stuff, though, so you have to be excessively wealthy to be bothered. It’s not all terrible, but new BMWs are not the same and rely on the badge greatly. In 2013, you could still buy a 3,100lb 128i with a 7,100 RPM straight six weighing a lot less than their new turbo four, but no one really noticed. The target demographic just shifted too far...

Bill Caswell > BrtStlnd 05/05/2015 at 21:07

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Thats just it. The M3 used to spank Porsche on the Nurburgring. It was the most winning touring car of all time. Now the M3 is a luxury car and as you point out they are radically different in concept. That is the departure. That is the end of the era.

Bill Caswell > BrtStlnd 05/05/2015 at 21:07

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The I8? Looks great in photos. Looks cool in person from the front but the back looks really plastic in person. Haven’t given it much thought otherwise.

Bill Caswell > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 05/05/2015 at 21:09

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Well said. But what do we drive in 20 years when an E30 costs $25,000 and there are no more miatas to buy and race?

Trunk Impaired 318 > Bill Caswell 05/05/2015 at 21:10

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9 out of 42 entrants at my autocross this weekend were in BMWs and 5 of them were 2001 or newer. Plus the BMWCCA HPDE going on at the same time seemed to be quite popular. Sure its not what it used to be but Id call them far from dead.

Bill Caswell > Trunk Impaired 318 05/05/2015 at 21:16

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Nice! what region? Chicago is exactly the opposite. Oh and 2001 and newer means E46 which kicks ass on a track. up that to the start of E9x and see what it looks like. but either way its cool that enthusiasts are still competing in older BMWs. I have like 12 of them now... buy em while you still can kind of thing

Bill Caswell > BrtStlnd 05/05/2015 at 21:18

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Don’t forget about the Car and Driver article posted yesterday “BMW is fighting for its soul” where they, car and driver, say that BMWs current product isn’t good on a racetrack. http://blog.caranddriver.com/the-continenta…

Its not just me, check the link at Build Race Party and you’ll see other articles echoing my thoughts. Not many articles saying BMW is killing it on the enthusiast side.

Trunk Impaired 318 > Bill Caswell 05/05/2015 at 21:24

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Glen region, about as small as it gets. My dad and I run a 99 318ti in STX, and there were only 2 E46s, a 135i, and a 2001 M Roadster with an S54. Plus there’s another father son team running an absolutely insane E36 coupe that started life as a 318is but now has an M52 and has been completely gutted and race prepped. Same story with another guy who has a E30 325is and with an S52. The BMW contingency is definitely strong around here. 12 older BMWs is impressive, we “only” have 6.

Biggus Dickus (RevsBro) > Bill Caswell 05/05/2015 at 21:26

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Buy an E36, they are the unloved bastard child of the M3 family.

Bill Caswell > Biggus Dickus (RevsBro) 05/05/2015 at 21:41

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I started racing wheel to wheel in an E36. Great cars as long you dont care about the interior falling apart. Which I didn't. Because racecar

EL_ULY > bob and john 05/05/2015 at 21:51

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BMW in the late 80’s- 90’s = fucking automotive perfection!

I’ve owned 4 of them lol

EL_ULY > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 05/05/2015 at 22:02

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Jag has done well imo. As for Lincoln, the goal should be to compete all those brands 100% directly. It’s NOT an matter to become a new BMW. Everyone insists on exact comparisons. Jag, Lex, Cadillac have products in those classes but offer them in their flavor. There is no “best in class”. They all have something different to offer wothin the same realm. Lincoln can be competitive in a performance stand point, why not? Maybe not “the best” but something very good in their flavor just like all the other brands. Again, no car in any of these classes are “best performing” and “best in class” in my book. If BMW is going soft, Lincoln needs to step it while their sheilds are down and offer customers their own RWD flavor and hope people bite. I don’t think Lincoln can continue further the way they are. Customers are getting younger and smarter. Make a 3 series competitor like the ATS and XE. No matter what 15 year old enthusiasts or euro fanboys say. They should do it. They have Ecoboost and the R&D from Jag, Aston, Ford Australia, and the latest Mustangs.

SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) > EL_ULY 05/05/2015 at 23:00

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No, Jaguar has done spectacularly. Lincoln also gets none of their R&D since Jaguar is no longer owned by Ford, they’re owned by Tata. That’s not my point. Every company has things they can do, and things they will do. Sure, Lincoln could make a Mustang with a Lincoln badge but will they? Part of Lincoln’s entire problem right now is that they have been selling rebadged Fords with some luxury bits and “executive styling” when the Ford versions look great on their own and are cheaper. No one under the age of 55 wants a Lincoln unless its a Navigator, in which case the target audience is 20 year olds with some drug money and they’ll probably buy used.

If they did make a sports car would anyone buy it? Let’s say, hypothetically, that Lincoln goes through with the coupe render that we’ve all seen. It’s essentially a restyled Mustang. Anyone who wants a Mustang is not going to by the Lincoln version. There’s no history. No prestige. No image. People love nostalgia, and Mustangs are nostalgic. The only way someone would consider a Lincoln over a Mustang is if it were substantially better, and Ford would never allow that to happen.

And I don’t agree about there not being a best in class. There is. There always is a best in class. For a long time, it was the M3. That’s why everything wants to be an M3 fighter. Have you ever heard of a company making an IS F fighter? No? That’s because the IS F is not seen as the best in its class. The only reason there doesn’t seem to be a “best in class” right now is because BMW has gone too soft with the M3. It’s still spectacular, but it’s thrown has been upset. We’ll see if it can keep it’s crown, but if not there will be a new best in class. There always is one car that comes out above the rest. And sure, flavors are important as they keep things interesting and, when combined with the right price tag, can lure potential buyers away from what is typically seen as the best in class, but the auto industry is not middle school t-ball. Everyone can’t win. Especially not if a company is trying to produce something that competes with their parent company. Cadillac’s V works because they’ve a) reworked their brand image substantially and b) because it doesn’t compete with other GM products. Think about it, GM’s claim to performance fame is the Corvette and a Cadillac xxx-V doesn’t directly compete with it. GM has increased performance sales with the V, not cannibalized them. Ford, on the other hand, has it covered. They have sporty hatch backs in the FoST/FiST and new RS. They have a sporty sedan with the Taurus SHO. They have the goddamn motherfuggin king of pony cars in the Mustang, and now they have the GT again. Any performance car that Lincoln tries to develop will infringe on Ford sales (assuming anyone actually wants one) unless it completely outdoes the Ford version, and that’s not a winning business model.

What is a winning business model? Diversity. What doesn’t Ford have much of right now? Luxury.

Lincoln’s only real hope as of right now is the new Continental. If they want to be successful in any way they will be the Ford luxury devision that they’re supposed to be. They’ll compete with Cadillac’s luxury cars. They’ll stop making boring bullshit and if they ever want to be in serious competition with the German Three it will be in a luxury segment, not a performance one.

As an aside, if you don’t think we shouldn’t be directly comparing vehicles in the same class you shouldn’t be comparing vehicles at all. I know your philosophy on cars. Every one is special in some way and none are deserving of hate. I get that, and I truly do think its an amazing philosophy to live by. But that doesn’t mean one car is not better than other, and it certainly doesn’t mean two cars in the same class should not be compared directly.

(Sorry for the super long response. I’m procrastinating)

EL_ULY > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 05/05/2015 at 23:10

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As an employee for Aston and Volvo, trust me, Ford got the goods from all of them while they were together. I understand the whole “prestige” and “pedigree”. Believe me when I tell you this, no one eeeever brings that up when they are here to purchase our AMG’s, Lotus, or Astons. Extremely rare. Still, people, especially those with money, remember Lincoln. They are due for a comeback. Even if it’s not at a level as the old times or as competitive as an M4 or E63, they need start getting their feet wet in this new performance and techology based luxury world. Some how using the Germans as a reference, but shying far from their ever dulling but exceptional products. Continental would be a good start.

SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) > EL_ULY 05/05/2015 at 23:21

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But why would anyone bring up prestige when they are about to buy an AMG, Lotus, or Aston Martin? Those three brands have more prestige in their parts departments than Lincoln could find in the room the the 1961 Continental was designed in. It would be great if they became somewhat relevant again, but honestly they’re going to need to do a lot of work before they become something other than a car manufacturer for the elderly and for limo services. As I said, the Continental is an amazing step forward (assuming it actually turns out like the concept) but I strongly believe that Lincoln’s future, if it has a real future, is going to be in luxury, not performance.

EL_ULY > SmoresTM Has No Chill (O==[][]==O) 05/05/2015 at 23:24

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Lol not in my parts departments. But O know what ya mean. I’m just saying the negative stigmas in the enthusiasts wolrd and the positives don’t means as much as people think

Textured Soy Protein > Bill Caswell 05/06/2015 at 01:36

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I would argue that just because people don’t autocross with BMWs doesn’t mean that BMWs aren’t good at being performance cars anymore.

I drive a 135is, and like I mentioned, I’m not an autocrosser or track person. It’s a good performance car except it really could use an LSD. The M235i is another great car and BMW will sell you a dealer-installed LSD for it.

Your observations of what cars are at an autocross are very much what I expected. I think the lack of BMWs is because of 3 things:

1. There are more performance-focused cars for cheaper than BMW prices than there used to be.

2. Run-of-the-mill BMWs are less performance-focused than they used to be.

3. The more performance-oriented models that remain in BMW’s lineup have more dedicated sports cars competing at their price points than they used to.

So take your Toyobaru, ST or WRX in the mid-high 20s. Sure none of those is turbo and rwd, but you’d have to spend $34k to get a 228i with just the sport suspension and no other options. If the goal is cheap speed and you’re not some kind of rwd purist, why buy the more expensive car?

A nicely-equipped (but not loaded) M235i with an LSD is very close to $50k. If you get the LSD, you also get kicked out of F Street. If you want to run in F Street, why not save a pile of cash and buy a Camaro 1LE?

I could go on. But it seems like the modern BMWs are all pretty much not competitive in their autocross classes, and are more expensive than cars that will be more competitive.

And yes, there is less performance focus at BMW.

But they still make nice, if uncompetitive-in-autocross, performance cars.

Blue 300 > PS9 05/06/2015 at 04:07

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He probably does have balls of steel... but you don’t need steel testicles to drift between some tracking markers and then have a VFX artist add some CG walls in post production. Personally my balls are made of carbon fiber because you know.. lightness and speed like a gazelle.

This M4 video has some nifty VFX as well.

nermal > Bill Caswell 05/06/2015 at 11:10

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They are moving the company in a different direction, and going after a market that is changing. For every newer BMW (or Honda) that isn’t at the local autocross, you’ll see a Focus / Fiesta ST in its place. Maybe a few more GTIs and Subarus than were there 5-10 yrs ago as well.

They still make the 2-series, which has been lauded as one of the “purest” BMWs in recent times. Yet they sell like crap, relatively. There are less than half as many 2-series sold as GTIs, for example.

You are correct that people that switch brands are less likely to come back.

BrtStlnd > Bill Caswell 05/06/2015 at 15:37

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By the way Bill, I will be 38 in August. I’m not a kid, so save that lame dismissive argument for someone else.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Bill Caswell 05/06/2015 at 17:56

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My local BMWCCA has a monthly autox and track events each season as well, fwiw

http://www.motorsportreg.com/events/2014-bm…

I made it to Hallett twice last year in my E90 (my One Car To Do It All), and have been to Motorsport Ranch as well. Looking forward to sampling COTA one day... A group of friends and I also take biannual trips to the Ozarks for a weekend full of driving back roads.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Bill Caswell 05/25/2015 at 16:51

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Wait, they won’t make Miatas in 20 years?